rationality to treat a small business person who makes $250,000 a year and employs ten people just like steve jobs, warren buffett and-- >> and we quibble? >> let me finish. we can quibble about what the right amount is, whether it's $250,000 or whether it's 500,000, what the president is trying to do. >> and for a while, charles, help me with this part of it. whatever your views on taxes, and i think it's happening and ben stein's earlier point, it's there. and deeply disturbing, where is it, not only there's a lack of result to slowing what is the growth to spend because there's no cutting going on. but we're going to-- and that's what we're going to do and this is the effort and the measure you use toinally get serious. this is not serious. >> warren buffett laid it out on monday in that new york times op-ed and he said in an ideal world, we would still have deficit spending ery single year and the president laid it out more than once and in an ideal world, we're still-- we're not talking about cutting debt. we're talking about increasin it at a slower rate and then later on, the idea of 5